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Dear Jane
Jan 28 2005 |
 
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Dear Jane,
First of all, I can appreciate your question and here are my answers. I'll answer your second question first.
My children are serving the Lord full-time with their lives. Their hearts beat for Jesus Christ. Sometimes Christians seem to think that the only way to serve Christ "full-time" is if they are in a ministry "profession." This is simply not true. The sum total of a person's life belongs to God and we have taught this very principle to our children. To assume that they (or other Christians, for that matter) do not want to serve God full-time with their lives simply because they are not in a "full-time ministry profession" is to make a wrong assumption. My children are serving God full-time with their lives - just as every Christian does. My oldest son, Jeremy (who, by the way, graduated from Liberty University), considers his position in Washington the way God has gifted him to serve. Jesus Christ. He already has inroads that a "ministry" person does not have. My son Jordan feels the same about his work. And both of them are open to the Lord to guide them wherever He wants them. Full-time ministry as a "profession" is a calling from God and a person should not enter it unless they know it is where God wants them. It is VERY difficult and both my husband and I have never wanted our children to do anything less than what Gods wants for them. Our job is to help our children recognize God's voice and follow Him where He leads. We trust them to hear God's voice. My daughter, GraceAnna, is walking with the Lord full-time at Clemson. I will say, parenthetically, that she NEVER wanted to go to a "secular" college. She had her heart set on Liberty but God re-directed her heart. She is a solid young woman. This leads into my answer for your first question.
You asked "Why would you take so much time to carefully train your children according to he Word of God when they are young and then send them to secular college when they are grown . . .?" The very reason Carl and I take so much time to carefully train our children according to the Word of God when they are young is so that they ARE well-trained when they are grown and "leave the "nest." During their formative years they have walked with the wise - this is the emphasis of Deuteronomy 6 and Ephesians 6:4. God gives our children to us in their growing up years for us to teach and train so that when they do grow up (and they do), we know they are prepared to face the ungodly, on their own, fully armed.
You are right - Psalm 1 says, Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers. But his delight is in the law of the Lord and in His law he meditates day and night . . .
This Psalm is a description of my 3 children who have left home - they do not WALK in the counsel of the wicked. They do not pattern their lives after the wicked anymore than I do when I walk in this world, they don't stand in the path of sinners nor sit in the seat of scoffers. The emphasis in this passage is what characterizes a person's life - the passage is not saying that we can't live or walk or stand or sit in an ungodly world; otherwise, no Christian should live in this world at all because it is filled with ungodly counsel, sinners, and scoffers. The Psalmist is warning against being the person who listens to the ungodly counsel (takes it in, heeds it, patterns his life after it). The Psalmist is warning against taking our stand with the sinners, and warning us against being one who sits and joins in with the scoffers. The person who is blessed is the contrast - the one who, yes, still lives in this world YET he delights in the Word of God - it's a promise really - this person will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in its season, whose leaf does not wither, and in whatever he does he prospers.
God is telling us here and in many other passages that His people are to be different while IN this world.
The emphasis is on the person's walk with God. My children each have a phenomenal walk with God - way beyond me when I was their age. I am very proud of each one of them.
Once again the reason we took the time to do what we did in training them was because we knew they would one day leave our training and face the world. We wanted our teaching to be like a garland around their necks like Solomon wrote in Proverbs 6:
"My son, keep your father's command, And do not forsake the law of your mother. Bind them continually upon your heart; Tie them around your neck. When you roam, they will lead you; When you sleep, they will keep you; And when you awake, they will speak with you. For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life."
I can appreciate the fine Christian Colleges out there. I also appreciate their standards especially because so many students from Christian homes have no standards. Our goal as parents; however, is to help our children have internal controls.
I could write reams covering this subject but I'll close with one final thought. I went to and graduated from a secular university. I was a Christian when I entered yet God used that time in my life to deepen my own convictions, to grow me up in Him, to learn how to handle the pressure, to confront my peers, and to share my faith. It was on a secular campus that my husband came to know the Lord - through the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We served in campus ministry at Duke for 5 years before going to seminary. We love the college campus ministry. Now it is exciting to see my children used so greatly serving the Lord fulltime on their secular college campuses. Though Jordan has graduated, he led many students to Christ while he was there. He would have never met them had he not been there. He also led a Bible study where the new Christians could grow. My daughter, now, is amazed at how much God is using her at Clemson. She calls with such excitement about all that God is doing in the lives of so many students. This is a delight to my heart. She wants me to come and speak to the girls. My oldest son, who did attend a Christian college, was used by God in a great way, too. He was distressed because of the lack of fervor for the Lord among the Christian students - and of all the "Christians" who know the right buzz words, who could talk the talk, but not walk the walk. While there he had the opportunity to train student leaders how to share the gospel He led students to Christ.
The issue is training our children so that they will be our letter, known and read by those in their generation.
Let me know if you have further questions.
audrey broggi
Jane's second letter:
Audrey, I recently wrote to you in regards to sending your adult children to secular college. You responded very quickly, and for that, I want to say thank you. I'm sure you are a very busy lady. I must admit, I was very surprised by your answers. First of all, I was surprised to hear you defend the secular university, knowing that it is anti-God & Bible and a hot seat for atheism. I know that you know this, because I have heard you on one of your tapes say this. I also know this, because I attended the University of South Carolina myself. Second of all, I was surprised to hear you talk so much about your children following their "hearts" instead of following the principles that God has laid out for them in God's Word. As a woman that seems so committed to the scriptures, I found this a strange response from you. Thirdly, I was surprised to hear you commend your daughter for having an awesome heart after she made the decision to follow her heart AWAY from attending a Bible College and TOWARD attending a secular college. I'm sure you daughter is a very sweet girl, but there is nothing awesome about turning from sitting under the teaching of God's people to sit under and (support financially I might add) the teaching of what the Bible calls fools. I will admit that I don't know you except what I have read and heard from you through this ministry. I have admired your mothering philosophy, but I am certainly confused at the goal of it. I know that you talked about internal things and how they are making a difference in the world, but the difference seems to be going contrary to the direction that God would want them to go. All throughout the scriptures, the thread is sown by God for people to come out from their secular lives and serve Him completely. I know that this is what you and your husband did, and I know that this is something that you believe is right, because I read it in your biography in regards to the young people you discipled when you and your husband were young. Anyways, it is good for us all to think through the things we do and the people we follow to make sure that their end is as godly as their beginning. Thanks again for listening.
Dear Jane,
Thank you for writing. I try, always, to respond quickly. Sometimes it takes a while, though!! As I read your latest letter and began to write my reply, I realized that I needed to take some time and deal with the issues you raised.
I do this not only for you, but also for other women who will face the decisions that my husband and I have made concerning the education of our children.
Jane, you wrote, "First of all, I was surprised to hear you defend the secular university, knowing that it is anti-God & Bible and a hot seat for atheism."
I would ask you to read my answer again. I did not defend the secular university - I defended the campus ministry. I also defended my God who didn’t turn His back on me when I went there. He saw me, a young Christian girl at the University of North Carolina and He was there with me. He didn’t take me out of there – He, rather, furthered me along in my faith. I defended my God Who saw my husband, a lost young man at Boston College and drew him to Himself through Christian students who, in God’s providence, went to a secular college and discipled my future husband. I defended my God Who is quite capable of leading my children through His Word. And I defended my God Who deeply loves and cares and died for those secular professors, teachers, and students and sometimes leads His people to go there to reach those people for Him.
The Apostle Paul went to Athens, which was “given over to idols” yet God brought him there to preach Christ. William Carey went to India, which was anti-God and Bible and a hot seat for pagan worship, child sacrifice, and wife-burning. Yet God called Him there to reach those people for Christ.
As with Paul, William Carey, Hudson Taylor, missionary families, and my sons and daughter – they are adults. No young child should be thrust into the pagan environment. As young children, they are to be brought up by their parents in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But they do grow up – and become our legacy to a lost and dying world. We raised our children to confront the culture.
You wrote, "I was surprised to hear you talk so much about your children following their "hearts" instead of following the principles that God has laid out for them in God's Word." Jan, this is another wrong assumption on your part and I am saddened by how, though I hope not intentionally, you distorted my words.
This is what I wrote: "I will say, parenthetically, that she (speaking of my daughter) NEVER wanted to go to a 'secular' college. She had her heart set on Liberty but God re-directed her heart." Jan, if she were “following her heart”, she would have gone to Liberty – she would not have been open to God’s leading. But as she continued to grow in her faith, studied God’s Word, asked for our counsel and advice, and sought God for His direction in her life, God is the One Who re-directed her heart.
Some Christians believe that God would never lead someone to a secular college but Carl and I disagree.
We didn’t face this issue with our oldest son - he wanted to go to Liberty and was convinced that God wanted him there. But we did face it when our second son sensed that the Lord wanted him to go to USC. We saw him get excited about defending his faith on a secular campus. He grew up hearing many stories from both Carl and me about our years on secular campuses. Both our boys had gone with Carl when he spoke at college retreats. They saw the students respond. Our boys spent much of their youth memorizing Scripture and sharing their faith continually, just like their dad. There was never a moment of doubt that Jeremy and Jordan were prepared to defend the faith on any secular campus. It was a matter of where God wanted to use them and where they could best be equipped academically for God’s calling in their lives.
But this doesn’t mean we made either decision lightly. We had many discussions including the one concerning USC when we had to think deeply about the message we were sending to families whose children might not be spiritually ready to confront the culture.
Our counsel to parents depends on many factors unique to each family and each student.
You wrote, “ I was surprised to hear you commend your daughter for having an awesome heart after she made the decision to follow her heart AWAY from attending a Bible College and TOWARD attending a secular college.
First of all, I didn’t even use the word “awesome” in my letter. Secondly, did you really mean to accuse my daughter of following her heart instead of following God’s word? If so, this kind of assessment is disturbing to me.
She walked according to the Word, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6
“A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.” Proverbs 16:9
“There are many plans in a man’s heart, Nevertheless the Lord’s counsel – that will stand.” Proverbs 19:21
God is the One Who directed her path. I commend my daughter for being sensitive to the Lord’s plans for life. Also, our daughter takes “obey your parents” so seriously that had we told her that we wanted her to go to Liberty or CIU or Bob Jones, she would have gone. So if you want to point a finger, point it at Carl and me, not at my daughter.
Jane, since I don’t know your age physically or spiritually; I don’t know if I am writing to an older woman or not. But I do know that as you grow into an older woman (or if you already are), God will entrust you to teach and encourage young women. I hope that you will be careful as you do this and not confuse God’s Word or His leading in other people’s lives with your own opinions.
You then wrote: “I'm sure your daughter is a very sweet girl, but there is nothing awesome about turning from sitting under the teaching of God's people to sit under and (support financially I might add) the teaching of what the Bible calls fools."
My daughter is not just a “very sweet girl,” she is a solid, grounded believer. Colossians 2:7 describes her well – walking in Him, “rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as she has been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.”
You are right that there is nothing awesome about turning from sitting under the teaching of God's people to sit under and (support financially as you added) the teaching of what the Bible calls fools. But this is not what my daughter did. Did you mean to accuse my daughter of turning away from the teaching of God's people? Did you mean to call every teacher who is not a believer a fool? I hope this was not your intention.
As for finances - my children have academic scholarships (all three – my son who went to Liberty, my son who went to USC, and now my daughter who goes to Clemson). Basically, they are the ones getting supported financially by the "secular" institutions where they, in turn, go and share the gospel with students and faculty. This is not to say; however, that we would not pay our children’s tuition if they did not get scholarships. We pay our physicians and surgeons who may not be Christians. We pay for gas which is made from oil we purchase from the Middle East. We pay our taxes which, in turn, pay for teacher’s salaries and the building of public schools.
As far as sitting under the teaching of what the Bible calls fools – it depends on what they are teaching. Not every professor is teaching heresy. For example, if I need to learn to sew, do I only learn that skill from a Christian? How about driver’s education? What if I am learning teaching “techniques” – like how to teach children to form the letters of the alphabet? Can that only be learned from a Christian?
As far as sitting under the teaching of God’s people – it depends on what they are teaching. God’s people can teach wrongly, too. Just because a teacher is a believer doesn’t mean that the teaching is correct. Just recently I received a call from a woman who was disturbed that the Christian teacher at her child’s Christian school was teaching that a believer can lose his salvation.
Frankly, I find much more confusion at many of our Christian campuses than I do at secular institutions. At least the lines are clear at a secular university. The lines are so often blurred at Christian schools – and sometimes (though not always), the students seem so fake, they know the “Christian” games, they know how to “act.” Yet they are caught up in worldliness.
We know the destruction of many students on a secular campus. However, these same students, even at Christian schools spiral downward. They have a way of finding the other students who have no heart for God – they break rules – and if the school has any integrity, the students are expelled.
Many Bible Colleges have their problems and inconsistencies too. I remember in your first letter to me, you asked why we would “send our children to secular colleges . . . especially when there are fine Christian Colleges with high standards” - and then you mentioned two examples: Pensacola Christian College and Bob Jones University. Though I am not personally familiar with Pensacola, I am familiar with Bob Jones. I know students who have recently attended and graduated. One of our friends grew up in that institution - his father a professor there and his mother a teacher.
And though I appreciate much of the mission and work on that campus, I do not appreciate the way Bob Jones University lauds the worldly works of Shakespeare nor do I appreciate the daycare and working mother mentality that permeates the school. My husband has personally discussed his concern over these issues with those who work there.
Children are raised in the Christian daycare or the Christian school so mothers can teach and work at the school, encouraging them to limit their family size and leave their homes. This is endorsed and encouraged by Bob Jones University as well as many other independent Baptist churches and Bible colleges. I quote from Way of Life Literature, April 26, 2004 David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. The following is an except from the new Way of Life Advanced Bible Studies Course The Pastoral Epistles where the writer is discussing the meaning of “keepers at home,” from Titus 2:
“The husband and wife do not have the authority to ignore or disobey the Word of God; but they have the authority to interpret the Word of God and to apply it to their family (1 John 2:27). In some cases, for example, the children are in a Christian school and mothers work in the school and church. In such cases, the mothers might actually spend more time with the children than if they stayed at home.”
I find this to be a biased interpretation and rationalization and goes against the clear intent of this passage and its sister passage in 1 Timothy 2 and 5. Young mothers are to be workers at home, keepers of the home, literally “home-workers.” This is the sphere and central domain of her work. This passage is not to be interpreted in light of the Christian school movement which grew out of frustration with the public school system. And if the truth be told, Christian schools and daycares could not function if the Christian mothers went home. The only time my husband and I feel a daycare is truly a ministry for mothers is if those mothers are what the Bible would define as “widows and orphans.” A good example would be single mothers who are struggling. But this is not what they are. They are money-makers and by their very existence in our churches, seminaries, and colleges, they encourage young mothers to abandon home and family. But see, they must interpret the passage like this if they are going to employ the women. They have to say it’s OK.
My friend who grew up at Bob Jones University said his family rarely ate dinner together as a family. They ate at the “institution.” The school dominated their lives.
To me, this kind of modeling muddies God’s clear teaching of a young mother’s role in her family. I do not want that example modeled for my daughter (or for my sons) at a Christian school or university or Bible college, though I believe their convictions are strong enough not to be swayed.
Our children received their Bible college at home and church. Their dad has his ThM and doctorate and he has been teaching theology to our children since day one. I know that not every child grows up with a father with that background – but every Christian father has God the Holy Spirit as his teacher. Every Christian father is equipped by God. Every Christian father is instructed by God to bring up his children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And as I said before, this is not to say that I do not appreciate Bible colleges and universities. My daughter-in-law went to one and benefited tremendously.
To give you an example of the fruit of “Bible college” at home being yielded at a secular university, just last week GraceAnna called me and we walked through 1 Timothy and Titus over the phone. She is in a Bible Study where they are studying 1 Timothy. She knows the issue of women’s roles will come up because she knows the contents of chapter 2. She wanted further teaching from me – as she was going back over her notes from when her dad taught the pastoral letters and from the notes she took when she traveled with me as I taught in different churches (and at home) on this very topic.
This brings me to the next part of your letter I want to address. You wrote, “I know that you talked about internal things . . .”
I’m not sure what “internal things” you are referring to. But I assume this statement is in reference to my writing, “Our goal as parents; however, is to help our children have internal controls.” I stand by that statement.
You continued, “and how they are making a difference in the world, but the difference seems to be going contrary to the direction that God would want them to go.”
I don’t even understand this statement so I will leave it alone. But I will ask you how you can discern that the difference my children are making is going contrary to God’s direction. You don’t even know them. As a sister in Christ, I once again am saddened by this assessment.
Then you added, “All throughout the scriptures, the thread is sown by God for people to come out from their secular lives and serve Him completely.”
I agree with you on the face value of your statement. God does call people to come out of their secular lives – but not always out of their secular jobs, unless those jobs are sinful and immoral. In the case of Zaccheus, being a tax collector was not a sinful thing – but he was sinful by cheating people. That’s why tax collectors were hated. That, too, is why Matthew’s conversion was so remarkable. In his case, Jesus did call him to a ministry profession – but when Matthew held what I like to call a “salvation party” inviting all his fellow tax collectors – there is no record that Jesus called them to leave their professions. Jesus said He called them to repentance.
Let’s think about the woman caught in adultery, who was probably a prostitute. Jesus told her to go and sin no more. He called her out of a lifestyle. If she were indeed a prostitute, as many think, Jesus was calling her out of that “profession” as well.
He told the rich young ruler to sell all he had and give to the poor and then follow Him.
Jesus was calling him to leave his secularly focused life. His point was not that selling possessions could earn salvation – but to show the man where his heart was. He was calling that man out of his “secular” life to follow Christ. But as you know, the man refused and went away sadly.
So, I agree with you. God calls all of His people to serve Him completely. Some He calls to full-time ministry as a profession – those, as Paul said, earn their living from the gospel. Others He calls to full-time ministry within their “secular” professions. My husband often calls the military in our church, “missionaries sent all over the world, paid for by the US government.”
My two sons, serving God full-time, one sent to Oklahoma, paid for by the GM Corporation. The other, sent to DC, paid for by the RNC. My daughter, sent to Clemson, paid for by scholarship.
For further pondering, what do you think of Joseph, who first served Potipher, then served the prison guard, then was governor over the land, until he was finally promoted to second in command under Pharaoh, holding down one secular job after another? Right where God wanted him – right where God led him. Remember when his brothers came to Egypt to buy grain, they didn’t even recognize Joseph. Why? Joseph looked like an Egyptian but he never compromised his testimony or his walk with God. In fact, he even married an Egyptian and he brought his family to Egypt – in God’s providence. They didn’t leave Egypt and go back to their land. God would not bring His people back to the land for over 400 more years. That leads up to Moses.
What about Moses, who after being taken care of by his mother at the request of Pharaoh’s daughter, was brought up in Egypt? Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds as Acts 7:21 tells us. God led him to Pharaoh’s house, then to Midian, then back to Egypt many years later to rescue His people and God would use his Egyptian background to serve him. And what about those years being a secular shepherd in Midian?
How about Esther who, in God’s providence, was the wife of a pagan king Ahasueras? After she pled with the king in behalf of the Jews, she didn’t leave him. And what about Mordecai, Esther’s cousin who took care of her after the death of her parents and instructed her even while she was queen? Mordecai was promoted to a secular job - being second in command to King Ahasuerus at the end of the book.
What about Daniel who, in God’s providence, was held captive in a heathen country yet he knew and served the true God? King Nebuchadnezzar took Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to serve him, then later King Darius gave Daniel a high position in a secular job because of his outstanding work. They served God completely in their “secular” training and “secular” jobs.
What do you think about Nehemiah who was cupbearer to the king and petitioned the king to go to Judah to help rebuild the city? What do you think of Joseph, the guardian of Jesus, who was a carpenter? What do you think about Zaccheus who was converted and didn’t leave his business but became an honest businessman? What do you think of the women who supported the ministry of Jesus out of their “private means?” What do you think of the demon-possessed man whom Jesus healed? When the man begged Jesus to be with Him, Jesus turned him away, saying, “Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you.”
And how about today in our times? Do you think President Bush is serving God completely? How about the Christians in our armed services? Do you think a Christian mother at home with her children is serving God completely? How about any Christian in government positions? How about the Christians in businesses? Do you think that God entrusts some of His people with secular jobs to accumulate great wealth so that they can be used greatly to finance the gospel? I know people like this who are serving God fulltime with their lives and it shows up in what they do with their money.
I ask these questions - not because I am seeking answers from you but just to give you more to think about and ponder.
The last part of your letter I would like to address is this. You wrote “I will admit that I don't know you except what I have read and heard from you through this ministry. I have admired your mothering philosophy, but I am certainly confused at the goal of it.”
I am sorry if you are confused at the goal of my "mothering philosophy." I will try to clear up the confusion. Simply put, and I have said it many times, my goal is that my children would grow to love the Lord their God with all their hearts, with all their soul, with all their strength. To put it even more simply – to love and serve Him. And now that I am just barely on the other side with 3 of my children, I am so incredibly amazed at the grace of God. I am so incredibly humbled that God would use Carl and me, in all of our sinfulness and failures as parents, to have a part in producing such solid young believers. I don’t know all the “details” of how God wants to use my children or how or what or where He will lead them. They are just beginning their journeys out of the nest.
As for me, I am just a pilgrim in this life who walks with God as much as I know how. I believe God has set my children apart for His purposes, not mine. His ways are inscrutable. He is my dwelling place in all generations. He is my refuge and my fortress; my God, in Him I will trust.
You may wonder why I have taken so much time to answer your two letters. Many times, I believe God brings questions my way so that I will take time to think it through and write it out. I believe these answers are not just for you but for others as well.
So I thank you for asking and being used of God to help me. You closed your letter with these words: Anyways, it is good for us all to think through the things we do and the people we follow to make sure that their end is as godly as their beginning.
I’m not sure what you mean but I would like to say one final thing.
See, the real issue is that we obey God in the home while the children are growing up. Nurturing a heart for God – taking our children by the hand and walking through life with them. Exposing them to things at the right time with “the wise” at their side – teaching them God’s Word, His perspective, His principles and always telling them that God wants to use them in their generation. (Deuteronomy 6, Psalm 78, Psalm 139, Proverbs, Ephesians 5, Colossians 3). I call this giving them a sense of destiny. This life is not about them. They are not their own, they have been bought with a price. I look at my children and I couldn’t ask God for more. Speaking of them, God has done exceedingly abundantly above all that I could ask or think, according to the power that works in us. And this is just the beginning. I hope I live to see the generations of people they will influence for the cause of Christ.
I pray this for countless other Christian families.
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